Just Riding Along…

By Industry Insiders

A letter from a reader about his broken frame got Dirt Rag thinking…what is the definitive answer when it comes to warranty issues? What’s a consumer to do? What can he/she expect the manufacturer to do? We decided to ask the ones who should know…the manufacturers. Here’s what they have to say on this oh-so touchy subject.

Dear Dirt Rag,

What in your opinion is the responsibility of the frame builder who’s customer snaps a frame? I’ve never seen this issue addressed in any bike magazine. I figure this is due to the fear of losing advertising or the possibility of disenfranchising frame makers, or even pissing off riders who won a particular frame.

I’ve always thought an easy solution to this may be a return deposit, like on a beer can, to promote recycling… until it happened to me.

I purchased a used (part one of my problem) builder X steel frame which developed an ugly fracture on the seat tube. I’ve also seen aluminum frames and my brother’s titanium Builder Z frame develop cracks due to normal wear (Builder Z sent him a brand new frame). A young jasper at my local bike shop thought builder X should do the same for me, but builder X estimated damage (with new paint job) to be around 300 bucks. Ouch! So ends another cycling season for,
John Tremblay

P.S. It’s my guess that you can’t even touch this question. But I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s interested in your answer.

Ross Schafer, Salsa Cycles

The issue of warranty is really tough. I’ve spent the last 21 years watching what does and doesn’t work on bikes. I’ve also seen the demands put on bike parts change a huge amount. You bet I’ve got a pocketful of delightful stories on this subject. Believe me, anybody who is actually in business building bikes and supporting any of the following: family, employees, mortgage, sushi or motorcycle habit, only wants to do the very best he/she can to assure the happiest customer possible. A high percentage of warranty work can be very costly for a small company. This cuts at the bottom line…the owner’s pocket. The pay already ain’t what it’s cracked up to be. Believe me, guys like Ted and me do everything we can to make sure we get nothin’ but warm and fuzzies from our customers.

But Hey! Shit Happens…and now we deal with it. This is a big subject, so I’m going to limit my insights to the issues as stated in your letter. John, you’re assumption that buying the frame used is a problem when dealing with its warranty is correct. Since you aren’t the original owner of this frame, you can’t in total knowledge vouch for what this bike has been through. This is the primary reason most of us small guys limit our frame warranties to the original owner. We builders can’t be responsible for the 230 lb. dude that scores an awesome deal on a 34cm Ala Carte "Yeah, it’s kinda small….I’ll just get a longer seat post." An extreme (but non unrealistic) case that probably doesn’t apply to you. But where do we draw the line? At the original owner of course. After all, that’s who chose that frame for the type of riding they intended to do (probably didn’t even think of you while making their choice). That’s also who had all the necessary details, specifications and warnings explained to ensure proper use and maintenance. You know all that stuff like: 1. It’s not made for freestyle; 2. Learn the proper use of a quick release; 3. Always use the right seat post (proper length and diameter can greatly affect seat tube life); 4. Don’t drive into the garage with the bike on the roof…etc

Was your pal with the Lightspeed the original owner? If so, his case cannot be compared. If not, well then Lightspeed’s warranty policies are simply different than Wojcik’s. There’s no right or wrong call to be made here. A used frame can look absolutely perfect in every way and still have a good whack taken from its lifespan. Even those few little crashes (of course, he never crashed it hard!) the old owner can take years off a frame’s life. Any builder with more than 100 frames out there has had a customer bring in a crumpled heap saying "It was just a little crash." Do you think an aircraft builder guarantees anything after a little crash? Again, an extreme comparison….I’m sure you get the point though.

Given enough use (or abuse) anything can be broken. That doesn’t automatically mean there’s a defect. Nor does it automatically require a free repair/replacement from the supplier. Imagine if this type of ethic was required for all consumer goods…there wouldn’t be any.

On the other hand, even the best builders make a mistake now and then….gulp. And those builders who want to stay in business generally will "eat it" (industry term) and do the repair at no charge regardless of who owns it. Mistakes like: massive alignment corrections, bad design, poor welding/brazing, use of too little material (very common problem since the weight wars started), or just plain bad framebuilding, can all cause premature breakage in a frame. Failure because of these reasons are usually obvious due to the type of failure or the short lifespan of the frame. Hopefully in cases like this, the builder has the balls (or whatever) to do the right thing and fix it regardless of who the owner is.

Salsa’s frame warranty for the original owner is as follows:

1. Lifetime guarantee that no welds or brazes will ever come apart (this I would honor whether the owner is original or not, and yes, it happened once since 1976…"no brag, just fact.")

2. One year warranty against rust.

3. One year warranty against fatigue failures.

Scot Nicol, Ibis

It’s an interesting question. Our policy is to first, without delay, before we promise anything, get the frame back. Often, we find that the frame has been crashed, thrashed, abused, run over by a 747, and yet the customer can’t believe that the bike has broken. We do an inspection of the frame, and determine if it is a warranty or abuse situation. If it’s operator error-what we call "running out of talent"-we offer a prompt and reasonable repair and repaint price. If the bike hasn’t been obviously thrashed and abused, we will promptly repair or replace the damaged part of the bike, no questions asked. If the bike is new and the paint is in good shape, we will also repaint it. If it’s a steel bike and the paint is totally thrashed, we’ll ask that the customer share with us the cost of the paint job since the bike was due for a repaint anyway.

Our return rate on frames is a fraction of one percent. And I’m not talking about .99%, more like .1%. We’re quite proud of our return rate. Nobody wants to deal with broken bikes, not the owner, not the shop and not the manufacturer.

This policy has been a great one for us, and we’ve heard very few grumblings.

John Parker, Yeti

You have entered the forbidden zone with your letter, but let’s give this thing a try anyway. First, let’s consider the issue of good faith: No frame builders come to mind who get up in the morning and go to work without realizing the magnitude of their responsibility to engineer and craft the best bicycle frames possible. I discard in Tremblay’s letter the fear of losing advertising or disenfranchising frame makers; again, the framebuilders I associate with are on a quest to build the best they can and they take great pride in their work.

I like Tremblay’s idea about return deposits, "like on a beer can, to promote recycling." However, the reasons for it not being popular or viable are many: A used frame would have to be stripped of all paint and decals and degreased before recycling, not an inexpensive process. Thermoplastic is the most viable for recycling, but even thermoplastic is not a practical option at this time (winter ’96).

Onto the heart of Tremblay’s letter. I’m glad that he recognizes that the major part of his problem was that his frame was used. I do not know of any company that extends its warranties beyond a bicycle’s original owner. Remember, folks, our industry is plagued with warranty issues and lawsuits brought on by consumers and lawyers suffering from the the "JRA" syndrome: "I was JUST RIDING ALONG when the damn bike snapped in two," I think the "young jasper" at Tremblay’s local bike shop needs a big-world realty-check.

"Builder X" cannot be held accountable for whatever use, wear and abuse the second-hand frame went through prior to its second owner.

In the very technical bicycle market, the press has had a difficult time conveying to the consumer how the different frame materials work and how long they should last. Yeti Cycles offers a one-year warranty on parts and workmanship, but after the warranty’s expiration we deal with each customer on a case-by-case basis and extend coverage to a bike’s original owner at our discretion. The owner of a used, second-hand bicycle has no legal right to coverage under an unexpired warranty, unlike a used-car owner. Regarding "Builder Z’s" response to Tremblay’s brother’s broken titanium frame, which I will dangerously assume was purchased new, Tremblay’s brother was able to negotiate with Builder Z to replace the frame under warranty.

All consumers need to understand how "Builder X" arrived at his $300 estimate to repair and repaint the bike. When the bike was constructed out of new materials, theoretically no contamination or corrosion had set in, it was built in a clean work area, and it was welded with an inert gas like argon or using the heliarc welding process also known as TIG (tungsten inert gas). Only with these methods can quality assemblage be achieved.

To do a quality repair on a used bike, the frame must be stripped of its paint or anodizing and of its stickers so that a non-contaminated joint can be prepared. There are numerous environmental issues to be addressed at this level. In California, for example, the sand used to strip bicycle paint with any trace of lead in it must be properly and responsibly disposed of at an additional cost. Some powdercoat materials cannot be removed by sandblasting but need to be stripped with chemicals or other environmentally hazardous products. Yeti operates our own stripper vat with a non-chemical, citrus-based solution that can be re-refined by the manufacturer rather than just used and discarded. Once the frame is free of all contaminants, the builder can replace the tube or reweld the affected area, then complete the repair with a new paint job, realignment and chasing and facing (all the steps required in building a new frame). Ultimately, repairs are costly for framebuilders because they require a custom, one-off process and so do not benefit from the cost-efficient production process.

At Yeti, repairs are conducted in as aggressive and timely a manner as possible, recognizing that the consumer has already paid for his or her bicycle and now must wait for us to fix and return it. While in the warranty and repair process, we also try to do any available upgrades (e.g., cable guides, water bottle bosses, horseshit like that).

I don’t know that I’ve answered your questions properly, but these are my opinions after more than 13 years as a framebuilder. Drink lots of beer, go fast and pass ’em on the right whenever you can…stick ’em in the weeds.

Sky Yeager, Bianchi USA

First, the industry does not have a standardized warranty policy, as size of companies and different frame materials and usage dictate different solutions for frame and parts breakage. That said, there are some standards that we find to be the norm. For example, almost all companies state that any warranty applies to original owner only. Think about this. This makes sense. You don’t know what happened to cause your frame to develop "an ugly fracture on the seat tube." Steel frames DO NOT "snap" without some force applied to cause said "snap." Warranties on mountain bikes tend to be very narrow, if you read the fine print, because of how we ride the damn things. Some companies go so far as to state that the warranty does not apply if they are ridden off road!

Bear in mind that small builders are very proud of their frames and their craftsmanship, but they also know that unless a frame is breaking at the weld, chances are that it is not their fault. Small framebuilders use the highest grade tubing available, which means they may hardly ever see a "defection tubeset." The time and money it would take to fix your frame comes directly out of the pocket of the small framebuilder, and believe me these people are not driving around in new Porsche Cerreras.

While we sympathize with you, we also ask you to reflect upon what other consumer products you can buy that will give you an unlimited-no-questions-asked new "thing" if you break the first one, which you didn’t buy new. (And we don’t mean L.L. Bean flannel shirts).

Ted Wojcik, Ted Wojcik Custom Cycles

I’m glad that we have an opportunity to discuss the responsibility of frame builders and also of owners/riders in what might be called frame failure. Today’s materials are far ahead of what we had only a few years ago and in reality, spontaneous failures are rare for all materials. It would also be true to think that the rider must have some responsibility in how the frame is used. I don’t think that anyone can expect any frame to take repeated launchings from a loading dock without some dire consequence, and by the same token you should be able to ride your bike down most singletrack without fear of your frame flying apart.

Any failure should be looked at carefully to determine cause and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. This could mean anything from selecting a better material to "Stop doing nose wheelies until the head tube breaks off."

An example of a warranty issue should be an indication of failure by a DEFECT in materials or workmanship. A broken weld, cracks, or breakage found to be caused by strength reduction due to a manufacturing error or improper thermal history would be thought by anyone to be a defect. Today’s mountain bike warranties can have a lot of disclaimers including but not limited to; crash damage, competition, modification, use of unauthorized parts, poor repair tech niques, environmental influences, and of course anything that would indicate gross neglect by the owner, such as having a clearance problem with a garage and bikes mounted on a roof rack.

We try to take a look at each request based on the actual evidence as presented. In Mr. Trembly’s case we found the failure to be caused by a severely rusted seat tube and based on the fact that it was a used frame, I found it hard to justify a gratis repair based on the prior owners neglect. If you give a quick analysis of the cost of the repair, it would show that the paint work would have been been a pro-rated cost even to the original owner and the cost of replacing the seat tube was heavily discounted ($100; $35 materials,$65 labor) to ease the pain of Mr. Trembly’s not having had enough forethought to have this frame thoroughly inspected before purchase. In comparison to other industries (motorcycle, auto) it almost seems like it might be a little to much to ask for any manufacturer to replace a frame when we consider the ultimate use of our products. I don’t think any car or motorcycle manufacturer would replace a part or product broken in competition or crash. All the costs of doing business are ultimately passed on to the consumer, including very liberal warranties. It might not be the best thing to have responsible owners paying for the neglect of those with less than a minimum of consideration to the use of their goods.

It never seems to amaze me how many "YOUNG JASPERS" are willing to put all three years of their experience at your disposal. It is just so easy to say "Hey Dude, that should be free!!" And in any case, the warranty request should be done by the dealer who made the profit at sale.

Keith Bontrager, Bontrager Cycles

It depends on the nature of the failure and the policy and PR will of the builder involved. If the fracture happened because the frame was not stuck together properly, with an obvious defect in the tubing or weld, then that is a manufacturing defect and all but the sleaziest-lowlife-cashing in on the trend-loser company would cough up a new frame. This happens very rarely in my experience. If the rider stacked into a tree, it’s generally on him. When this happens the fracture can occur at the time of the crash and everything’s obvious (though we’ve had people try to claim JRA and hit us up for a freebie warranty frame in this case – sheesh?).

Or maybe the rider IS really just riding along when the frame lets go, but he or she crashed the bike real hard months earlier. They may not have noticed that the head angle was an extra half degree steeper, but it can happen. A doomed frame like this can hang on for a while before it lets go. months or even years sometimes. I’ll let the reasons, technical BS that would fill your ever fattening book even more, out for now. But, trust me when I say that a slightly bent frame has a much shorter fuse in fatigue than a straight one. Or, and this is where it gets trickier, maybe the frame had never been crashed hard enough to bend it. Sure, it was crashed (it was ridden right?). Then it’s just a pure and simple fatigue failure, the kind that are sneaky. It is up to the individual company to determine whether this is a warranty-able failure. Many do, especially those who have problems in this area. If a certain frame has a reputation as a one year wonder, and the manufacturer wants to stay in the bike business, they can develop a replacement policy that everybody likes.

"Yeah, I ride one of those… yeah I break one every year but they always give me a new one… yeah, this is my third one… it’s like I’m sponsored… now as soon as I get this cast off my jaw I’m going to put my new one together and get back out on the dirt…" or something like that. Many will replace the frame when the customer stomps around and whines loud enough, especially the big guys who buy the frames pretty cheap in the first place. Smaller guys won’t go this far generally, on the basis of fixing a squeaky wheel, because they can’t afford to and it’s not part of what they had in mind for the warranty in a lot of cases. Depends on the builder and situation.

I do not think there are any frames built that will sustain hard (expert level racing and training) use indefinitely. I’ve spent 15 years thinking about it, so I think I’ve got it right. If that’s true, a manufacturer has a legitimate reason to limit their obligation to replace a frame under warranty after a long period of hard use. If a manufacturer chooses to offer a lifetime warranty on a frame, without conditions on fatigue failures, he is doing it as a sales tool. If he is doing it because he really truly believes his frames are not going to ever break, he’s misinformed.

On the other hand, very few people ride hard enough to kill off a well engineered and properly assembled frame in three lifetimes. So, the above can work. It’s an economical thing. How many frames do you replace because some gorilla races and trains hard 5 hours a day, 8 days a week and breaks them, vs. how many more frames do you sell, hopefully some of which go to people who do not ride hard enough to break them.

I dunno what’s right in the big picture sense. Whatever you were told when you bought it is what matters. If you don’t want to be a creep and try to whine your way into a new frame, you gotta pay to ride.

The ti guys are covering their butts on cracked frames a lot these days. The magazines who pimped the stuff as a wonder metal a few years ago got too many innocent builders without much technical footing all pumped up and believing it, so they cranked out a bunch of very very light frames as fast as the could for as long as the fad’s feeding frenzy would sustain. This is over now, for the most part, and they’re paying the dues on all those quick and dirty frames they spewed. Same happened for aluminum (still happening actually) and steel, so we’re all dues payers before it’s over, if we’re still in business.

If a small builder meets you in the middle on a repair of a used frame, he’s working hard for you. Back out the cost of the paint and his quote seems highish, but not too far out of line. Negotiate. Buy him a beer before you do. And did you really, truly, deep down in your knobby little heart, believe that you were going to get a warranty frame when you bought one used? Sheesh again.

Jackson Lynch, Trek Bicycle Corporation

Trek Bicycle Corporation warrants each new Trek bicycle frame and rigid fork against defects in workmanship and materials for the lifetime of the original owner, except OCLV carbon and full suspension bike frames which are warranteed for the first five years of ownership by original owner. Trek Bicycle Corporation likewise warrants all original parts, excluding suspension forks, for a period of one year from the date of purchase.

Suspension forks shall be covered under the stated warranties of their original manufacturers. Paint and decals are warranted for one year. This warranty is expressly limited to the repair or replacement of a defective frame, fork or defective part and is the sole remedy of the warranty. This warranty applies only to the original owner and is not transferable. Claims under this warranty are to be made through an authorized Trek dealer. Proof of purchase is required. A warranty registration card must be completed and received by Trek Bicycle Corporation before a warranty claim may be processed.

The warranty does NOT cover normal wear and tear, improper assembly or follow-up maintenance, or installation of parts or accessories not originally intended or compatible with the bicycle as sold. The warranty does NOT apply to damage or failure due to accident, abuse or neglect. Trek Bicycle Corporation shall not be responsible for incidental or consequential damages. Labor charges for parts changeovers or the individual costs incurred by dealers are not covered in the warranty. The user assumes the risk of any personal injury or damage to the bicycle or other losses if the bicycle is used for stunt riding or similar activities, power or motor assist of any kind or anything other than normal use.

In spite of the fact that we offer a limited lifetime warranty on workmanship and materials of steel and aluminum frames and forks, what most consumers incorrectly assume is that warranties cover normal wear and tear. Which they patently, do not. Like an automobile, once you drive it off the showroom floor. it’s your responsibility to maintain it and operate it in a sensible manner. Unfortunately, your reader is out of luck on two fronts. First, he’s not the original owner. I know of no manufacturer who warrants second-hand frames and forks. Second, it sounds like the bicycle was damaged under normal riding conditions. If it had been a Trek and he was the original, then under those conditions we would offer to repair it, if safe and feasible, for a cost to be determined by our warranty department.